When dealing with the subject of salvation (Soteriology, meaning: “The study of the doctrine of salvation“) from a Biblical foundation, perhaps the most well-known, most thorough, and most insightful treatment of the subject is found in Ephesians 2:8-10, which states:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith0, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
The key word concerning the subject of salvation in this text is actually a phrase in the English, the phrase is: “have been saved” (which in the Greek is a single word), sesosmenoi1 in the Greek.
By examining this word, we shall uncover unseen shades of meaning.
One need not ever study the original languages to understand what God is saying in His Word.
Studying the Holy Scriptures in the languages God chose to communicate through has been compared to adding color to a black and white picture.
The black and white picture gives meaning; color simple adds a fuller understanding, emphases, and clarity.
If God chose those languages6 to communicate the good news to all of mankind, who are we to imply it is of no importance to search out their fullest meaning, especially in this day and age when it is so easy to do so.
Sesosmenoi is a verb, which is an action, something that is done. The following explains how verbs function in Koine Greek.
Greek verbs have five aspects: mood, tense, voice, person, and number. They reveal:
† Far more than a lexigraphical definition.
† Who is performing the action.
† Whether just one or more than one is doing it.
† When it is done.
† Whether it is a single event or process.
† Whether it is an actual happening, a command, or something wished for.
† Whether the subject of the verb is an active or passive participant (or both!).
The Greek word sesosmenoi1 is outlined as such2:
Perfect Tense: Completed in the Past,
. Results in the Present
Participle Mood: Indicating a Full Completion, a Reality
Passive Voice: The Subject Receives the Action – The
. Subject is NOT the Performer
. of the Action
Second Person: Applies to the Person Reading It,
. or Whom Spoken To
Plural Number: All May Receive, “we,” No Exceptions
What this means is that the phrase “have been saved” is broken down as follows3:
1. It is a (Periphrastic) Participle Mood (PPM), which means; it is used to complete the idea of the main verb, it is called supplementary.
An example is the statement “he is destroying,” is changed to “he has destroyed completely,” when the verb is changed to a PPM.
In the key text, it reinforces the concept of being completely saved, with no possibility of being or becoming unsaved.
The participle is a verbal adjective having tense and voice like a verb, and case, gender, and number like an adjective. Participles function as adjectives, adverbs, substantives, and verbs.
The Nominative Case means that the verb is the topic (focus, theme, and issue) of the sentence. Salvation is the focus of attention in the text: not “grace” (though, it is how salvation is obtained), not “faith” (though, it is the vehicle that delivers salvation via grace), not “yourselves” (though, people are the ones being saved), not “the gift” (though, that’s what salvation is), not “of works” (though, that is how NOT to get saved), not “lest anyone should boast” (though, that is why God will not let salvation be worked for).
The focus of this verse is God’s free unmerited gift of salvation to those that will believe.
Salvation is not a trade for faith, though one must have faith to receive salvation.
Because salvation is the focus and there are no conditions, the person that obtains it cannot lose it; and those that have obtained it, have done so due to a response in faith to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
2. It is in the Perfect Tense, which is an action that took place in the past, the results of which have continued to the present.
It has no exact equivalent in the English, but it is understood as a past completion with the results effecting the present.
This indicates that the salvation of the subject was completed in the past and continues to affect the subject in the present.
Once gained, salvation cannot be lost.
3. It is in the Passive Voice, meaning that the one being saved did nothing to become saved.
The action of the verb was done by someone else; in this case, God.
God and God alone saves, the subject of the verb (man) has no power to save it’s (him) self.
4. It is in the Second Person, meaning what is being said is intended for the reader, the person who is reading this passage, the person who meets the conditions in the passage.
Therefore, the person reading this passage, which lives by faith; shall (was-is-will) be saved.
5. It is in the Plural Number, meaning what is being said is meant for all who read it.
God wants all of those who read this passage, who meets the conditions of this passage to know they are saved, though no act of their own, by His grace alone.
Main Grammatical Insight
Concerning the Participle Mood of this verse (as well as concerning other Greek words), when someone is saved, they are completely saved.
They cannot be more saved, or less saved.
Salvation is something that once gained it can never ever be lost; it can never ever, ever be undone. Once you have it, you have it.
This rhetoric expresses the vigorous emphasis that the grammar conveys.
Positionally, the believers are made “alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised … up with Him, and seated … with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus.”4
However, functionally, they are still here on earth, living out their life; living out their salvation, which is guaranteed with a seal (a promise that cannot be broken, positive proof of ownership), which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.5
“When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.” (John 19:30)
An Extra Consideration ~ It is Finished, Completely…
Salvation is completely finished – no one can add to it.
Salvation is something that the Christian did not gain by merit or effort; therefore, it is something that they cannot lose by effort or a lack of merit.
According to the Authorized Version (King James Version), the last thing Jesus said before His death on the cross (John 19:30) was “it is finished” (Tetélestai in the Greek).
Other translations render Tetélestai, either, “accomplished” or “completed,” which is closer to the true meaning.
Both these words indicate more than simply finishing an act; they mean a complete fulfillment of a purpose.
Resent archeological digs have shed much light on our understanding of the word Tetélestai.
The first indication that there is a fuller meaning to this word was found concerning a property deed that had Tetélestai written across it, proving that the deed holder had paid for the land completely and owned it.
After this find, archeologist started noticing Tetélestai used in accounting parchments and codex’s, as a conclusion rendering that accounts were “paid in full.” And most notably it was also found on prisoner’s paperwork.
In the Roman judicial system incarceration was used (not so in the Hebrew culture) and when a person was sentenced to serve time upon conviction of an offense, there was a copy of the court transcript, which stated the charge, and the verdict, and was posted outside their cell.
This was technically called a “bill of indebtedness” in the Latin, in English it’s called “a debt to society,” and in the Hebrew it was referred to as the “handwriting of ordinances,” which Paul refers to in Colossians 2:14 (“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross“).
When a prisoner served a year, this would be reported on their “bill of indebtedness” until finally they had fulfilled their full sentence.
They would be given this document to hold on to showing that they had paid the debt to society, so if anyone ever accused them of committing the offence and getting away with it or of being an escapee, they could produce the court transcript showing they served their sentence.
When they had completed their punishment, Tetélestai, would be written across it, corner to corner, which meant the penalty was “paid in full.”
The reason this becomes important is concerning Christ’s last words, is it could be generally said: that “it is finished ,” or “it is completed,” could refer to a number of things.
Jesus could having been saying that His life was completed, that His mission was completed, or that His teachings were completed.
And while generally true, this is not the essence of what He was stating specifically.
Tetélestai says much more specifically or denotatively, than it does in the general or connotation sense of the word.
Jesus not only completed His mission, but much more important to the believer; He paid for their salvation in full.
The point that Christ was making is that He had done it all on the cross.
This is why you and I can add nothing to our salvation; because Jesus did it completely in that He paid in full the price of our redemption.
The Timeline of Salvation
Understanding that the Ephesians passage utilizes the perfect tense, indicating it was something completed in the past, with consequences which are ongoing, in the present and yet in the future as well; displays the three tenses of salvation, past, present, and future; which can be examined in Scripture by the following passages.
Past – Having Been Saved: Ephesians 2:8-9
– Positionally Saved
– Entrance Ticket to Heaven
– Occurred at the Cross of Jesus
– Called Justification
– It Is a One Time Event
– Saved from the Penalty of Sin.
Present – Are Being Saved: Romans 6:3-22
– Operationally Saved
– by the Holy Spirit
– Moment by Moment
– Occurring in the Life of the Believer
– Called Sanctification, It Is a Process
– Saved from the Power of Sin.
Future – Shall Be Saved: Romans 8:23
– Eternally Saved
– Legally Ratified at the Bema Seat of Christ
– Occurring at the Rapture
– Called “the resurrection of our body”
– Saved from the Presence of Sin. (Based upon a teaching by Chuck Missler)
When Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, He paid the full price for those sins.
There is nothing that a person can do to aid in their own salvation; it is freely given by God’s grace, it is an unmerited gift, Jesus did it all.
He paid the price in full, in fact to imply otherwise or to attempt to add to it is blasphemy and according to God is rewarded with hell.
When Jesus died on the cross He just didn’t finish His life, finish His teaching, finish His work; Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, He Tetélestai, “Paid it in Full.”
All Scripture verses listed, unless otherwise noted, refer to the King James Version.
“The difference between ‘involvement’ and ‘commitment’
is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
the chicken was ‘involved’ – the pig was ‘committed’.”
0. Biblical Faith
Biblical faith is found in God’s word because of the consistency of witnessing miracle after miracle exhibited in God’s word, with the end result being that truly this book could not have been authored by man, but must have been offered by He who can see the ending from the beginning – God Himself, wherein this book deserves our greatest attention as God’s revelation to man. Biblical faith is to be primarily based upon an interaction with God’s word, as is declared in Romans 10:17, which states:
“Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God“
The Source of Biblical Faith
Biblical faith is created and grown wherein as a person reads the Bible, and the Holy Spirit opens their spiritual eyes to perceive that which is laid out, it is a logical reasonable process of coming to the conclusion that this book could not have been written by mortal man (2 Timothy 3:16), because:
1) There are prophecies given in Old Testament, that are fulfilled in the New Testament.
2) There are prophecies given within the Bible as a whole, which are fulfilled since it’s closing.
3) There are scientific and natural insights presented in the Bible, which were once considered completely false; in time, science has caught up with the Bible proving that it was correct in the first place, and that it is beyond human insight.
4) There is deep wisdom that is written between its pages, which are far beyond the capacity of a human being to create.
5) There are internal evidences found in the Bible when it is crossed-referenced within itself in such a way that it is obvious that 40 different men could not have utilized the exact same type of “Figures of Speech,” including: typology, such as seen in metaphor, similes, models; along with prophetic symbols as seen in even the use of numbers, colors, events, material and substances, dates, mathematics, names, roles, and even people’s personality and lives; all done to portray a shadow of things to come rather in heaven, or in the particular case of Jesus, the fulfillment of the Messiah; as witnessed in His First and Second coming – as well as Last Days events – all done in such a way that the only explanation is that God orchestrated the creation of this Book.
All leading to the conclusion that this book was not written by man, but by a God that is outside of our time domain, who can see the ending from the beginning (Isaiah 46:9-10); who is all-powerful, and in total control of His creation (Isaiah 45:5-7), and therefore worthy of our complete trust and faith in what He has said and what He will do (Isaiah 46; Jeremiah 29:11).
1. For the sake of doing any further Greek word study, the stand-alone Romanized transliteration of the word “saved” is sozo in the Greek, Strong’s Number 4982.
2. The text used is from the ”H KAINH ΔΙΑΘΚΗ” translation by the Trinitarian Bible Society, and is a Byzantine text in accord with the Textus Receptus.
3. THE COMPLETE WORD STUDY NEW TESTAMENT WITH GREEK PARALLEL, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, PH T., AMG Publications, Chattanooga, TN 37422, USA, 1990.
4. Ephesians 2:5-6.
5. Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30.
6. Concerning the Languages of the Bible
Both the Hebrew and the Greek languages have their own particular differences which are utilized by God, and which presents God’s message to man in a diversity of style and effectiveness that complement each other.
The Hebrew (Old Testament) language displays vividness, conciseness, simplicity and denseness, and is very poetic and therefore necessitates many more English words in its translation is due to its vagueness; therefore it has the ability to utilize puns, and many other rhetorical devices; which add color and nuances to the language beautifully.
Whereas in comparison, the Koiné Greek language (New Testament) is beautiful, rich, and harmonious, a very specific language, technical, efficient and effective; an excellent tool for vigorous thought and religious devotion.
These are characteristics which make Greek an excellent language for debate, philosophy, logic, and science, due to its strength and vigor; a language of argument with a vocabulary and style that penetrate and clarify phenomena rather than simply describe verbiage.
Greek takes many more English words to translate a single Greek word into English because of its specificity and exactness, yet for a different reason the Hebrew also needs many more English words to translate a single Hebrew because it is vague.
Greek is perhaps the most precise form of expression found in any language, far beyond the English, Latin, or Oriental languages.
This is one of the closest to perfect languages in man’s existence, making it more than appropriate as God’s tool of communication to man.
What we find in these 2 languages, is that the Hebrew language, which God used as mankind was coming of age, growing from a single man (Abraham), to a family (the 12 Tribes), to a nation (Israel); is vague, limited in its revelation in the same way that God limited his exposure to the human race in the time of the Old Testament by utilizing a single man, his family, and a nation that would carry his word to the rest of the world.
During this time it is as if God is seen as if from behind the veil.
Yet, when we see the Greek language, with its specificity and preciseness, a language that reveals in great precision in a way that would be synonymous with God’s revelation of Himself in the person of Jesus.
This is why many people think that there one God of the Old Testament that is a judge, mean and condemning; and another God of the New Testament, patient, loving, and sacrificial.
There is only one God, He simply chooses different ways to reveal Himself, He has chosen a progression in revealing Himself (The good side of this is that as God has patiently and slowly revealed Himself, He has been patient with man as well, even winking at his transgressions [“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent” ~ Acts 17:30] – giving man a temporary acceptance through faith in God, as seen in the yearly sacrifice, prior to Jesus, but once Jesus has come; God specifically demands faith be placed in Him.)
In the Old Testament they knew the Messiah was coming, but didn’t know who he was.
In the New Testament God specifically revealed who the Messiah is, and that salvation can be found in no other (See Gal. 3:22-26).
Concerning the precision and methodical nature of Koiné (Greek: “common”*) Greek, it should be understood that Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures, were translated into the “common” Greek three centuries before the time of Christ, known as the Septuagint translation and was what Christ and the disciples used as their Scripture in their day (except for within the Temple and the synagogues, where the Hebrew translations of the Torah were utilized).
(*The common dialect, as opposed to Attic dialect. Koiné Greek is an ancestor of modern Greek, having come from the Classical Greek and mixed with local variances. And is the first supra-regional dialect in Greece, becoming the lingua franca for the Eastern Mediterranean and ancient Near East throughout the Roman period due to the prior conquest of Alexander the Great – 336 BC to 323 BC, and therefore became the common language of the known world ~ 300 BC to AD 300. Septuagint meaning: “seventy,” – the abbreviation LXX is found in your Bible margins when referring to it, and comes from the Roman alphabet symbolizing “70” – because seventy [72?] translators were used in its translation. It took fifteen years to finish the Septuagint, from 285 to 270 B.C., and was commissioned and paid for by the Greek King of Ptolemaic Egypt, Ptolemy II Philadelphus [285-245 B.C.], his father was Ptolemy I. Ptolemy I, was one of the four Greek generals of Alexander the Great, who after his death, slit up the kingdom of Alexander the Great; the Greek king of Macedon who became a world dictator. Ptolemy I and his son ruled the area of Egypt.)
This is why many times there is an inconsistency between our New Testament quotations of Old Testament passages, and the Old Testament passages themselves.
The reason that the two Testaments are not exactly the same is that our Protestant Old Testament is based upon the Hebrew Masoretic Text (The Hebrew Old Testament that was not codified until the 8th century A.D.), and Jesus and the disciples were quoting from the Greek Septuagint translation of the (Hebrew) Old Testament Scriptures, which explains the differences seen between the two (many Christian translators believe that the 8th century Hebrew Jewish translators used variant Hebrew words in the Masoretic translation to attempt to distance their translation from the Christian Bible which at the time used the Septuagint Old Testament; they believed Christianity was an evil cult), translations.
The supernatural outcome of having a (Septuagint) Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament is the ability to specifically understand the Hebrew words used in the Old Testament, as they could be laid next to the (specific) Greek, which would set up a parallel of translation effect.
So as to define the Hebrew according to the Greek; by thus setting aside the vagueness that was originally introduced, as well as gaining the ability to cross-reference each with each other, and have both of the Testaments comparable at the same time.
And in the process, acquiring greater insight into both translations; as seen in the New Testament quotes of the Old Testament which are made more precise and clear, and the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the New Testament with greater understanding.
It’s like God presented Himself in the Old Testament while still behind a veil to the Jews (“the Hebrews”), more mysterious and at arm’s length.
Yet, in the New Testament, Jesus revealed God in a more personal, detailed and intimate manner, in Himself (which is where we get the idea of: “having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour”).
We also have God presenting His written word in the specificity of the Greek language in the New Testament, and eventually (c. 280 BC) presenting a more precisely regarding the Old Testament as seen in the Septuagint.
Jesus Christ is the revelation of God the Father that was never seen before in such specificity (1 Timothy 3:16).
In the Old Testament we see the actions of God; in the New Testament we see this personality in the person of Jesus Christ.
Both of these languages are dead languages, meaning that they are permanently set – they do not change (which is important to us, in that consistency and uniformity are assured), and are therefore excellent tools for translation purposes with set meanings; even though our English is a living language, which is fluid – always changing; and therefore mandates a greater deliberation in translation.
How amazing is our God that He would specifically utilize two languages which are almost opposite of each other in order to fulfill His Will.
The one language He uses as He begins His journey with man from behind a veil, vague as He slowly, mercifully, but surely introduces Himself to mankind, utilizing a temporary year-by-year Levitical system to teach man that he is a sinner, awaiting the permanent substitute as seen in the person of Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Israel; the Savior of the world.
Jesus who was declared in a specific thorough language which gives great detail concerning the person of Christ who reflects the Father, wherein salvation is made specific concerning God’s demand that man placed his faith in God, wherein man accesses the grace of God for forgiveness through the atoning work of the cross.
Salvation comes only one way, God’s way.
Yet how miraculous it is to see how God even uses the languages He has chosen to symbolically display what He has literally written in His Word – our God is beyond awesome, there are no words to describe Him – all we could do is praise and glorify Him for His mercy and grace. Aman
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So if eternal security is true, can you explain what Paul means in Rom 8:13 in addressing the brethren in Rome?
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
What does this passage have to do with the eternal security? Do you think that you’re placing conditions upon salvation with this passage, wherein do you also attempt to make mute all the passages which emphatically state that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, so that now we must mortify the deeds of the body to maintain our salvation?
Are you so anxious to destroy the Biblical doctrine of the eternal security that you will jeopardize your own salvation, can you tell me that you have mortified the deeds of the body, or that anyone that believes against eternal security wherein they’re saved have mortified their bodies, with the presupposition that this means to stop sinning. Two mortify four to kill the body is the active living by faith, and subjugating our lives and will to the holy spirit, it is not a prerequisite no more condition of salvation.
If you were to be honest on this subject matter, let me ask you if you of read the five articles I have written regarding eternal security.
That would be a sign of integrity, that of listening to someone you are opposed to, considering everything they had to say. Yet, I seriously doubt that you’ve done that.
Because you would not be able to refute all the evidence and I presented in those articles.
He does believe that which seems logical to you, that it’s not fair that some could live is carnal Christians and still be saved.
You make salvation a condition of behavior at the expense of grace.
It is apparent that you only want to distract from the myriad of passages, and the understanding of the Greek grammar which could only lead to the conclusion that eternal security is what salvation is.
You think it has to do with man, but it has to do with God.
How self-righteous it is to take this stance, while still attempting to be saved by grace yourself.
You act like a Pharisees pretending to be something more than you really are. I would defy you to study in depth 1 John 1:8-10 regarding your spiritual state.
We are all messed up sinners. It is by God’s grace, by his gift, that we are saved. And the response of faith is not adequate to be equated with works.
So friend, keep working on it. The one thing about self-righteousness, it is easy to condemn sin in others, yet always at the expense of being blinded by your own sin in return.
I simply asked you a question in light of your held view and you declined to provide an explanation (which is your prerogative). You are well aware that scripture cannot itself so why protest my question when all I did was ask you to reconcile this particular verse in light of your belief? It should be difficult for you.
I apologize for not responding to your last two emails to my website I’ve been very busy. I also apologize for their crass and mean-spirited tone I took with you. I did so based upon our last emails some time ago in which it became evident that you vehemently oppose eternal security.
I spend much of my ministry dealing with emotionally and spiritually damaged individuals whose sense of self-worth are so diminished they make themselves unlovable, and when they run into individuals that through self righteous treatment of others attempt to teach them they’re not saved when in reality they are this compounds the issue which Satan loves.
Yes you heard me right. Of the last 40 years of being a Christian my first 10 years wherein I was a pastor at a church my denomination taught that eternal security was a heresy.
It took a long time for me to allow God to show me the truth. The truth is that if eternal life is indeed eternal, by the very words that God uses in his book “eternal life” mandate that it cannot be lost even by those that receive.
To say that God cannot keep you, even when you run away as a prodigal son did, is an affront to the very character of who God is.
You see the true issue is not the behavior of the believer, it is the ability and desire of God.
It is an assault against him and his character to teach that we have so much power in our life that we actually are the only ones involved in our salvation, or at least that we can lose our salvation implies by nature that we are the ones that are instrumental, which is not true.
The main issue that those that teach against eternal security is they presuppose that if God chooses one individual, then he chooses another individual to go to hell as well, and this seems to go against the righteousness of God.
The whole issue is the potter and the clay. Yes we have responsibilities. You violate those responsibilities and you pay an earthly price and you can pay a maternal price when it comes to awards.
Those that do not believe in eternal security are only up with getting into heaven, I am now more interested in the rewards I will or will not receive in heaven.
You see a difference in those two types of thinking, if you don’t that’s okay.
God will not violate the sanctity of your belief system when it comes to this issue, but you will violate carnal believers personhood and holding this position.
Teaching people that they can lose their salvation teaches them not to have faith.
Faith that God will hold on to them no matter what sins they do. Think about the murder David who spent a year running from God after his sin. He committed this sin somewhere around Psalm 50 or so.
What’s amazing is to see how even his act of murder changed his attitude to one of humility as seen in comparing the first 50 chapters of Psalms were he show self-righteousness and arrogance, as compared to those afterward where God has tamed him because of his own sin.
It sounds heretical to say that God can use sin, but that’s how powerful and loving our God is.
It is this sin of Peter denying the Lord that humbled him enough to be used of God where before he was an arrogant pompous self righteous individual.
Anyway, I would ask you one question before I get into an exegesis concerning Romans 8:13.
With the thought in mind that it is the previous seven chapters that you must keep in context and that answer your question.
Lifting a Scripture out of context distorts its meaning many times as this verse displays.
Without context you end up with nothing but pretext.
Think about Romans 8:9 which states:
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Tell me what you think this means and then I’ll take the time to go into greater depth about your last two questions. (Please excuse any typos or sound alike words as I’m using voice recognition hardware and have no time left to edit) Brent
Thanks for your reply Brent which I did not see until today. As fellow brethren, we can always agree to disagree without disparaging one another which I’m quite sure you agree with.
Yes, I do disagree with eternal security as I believe the scriptures do not teach that. Having said that though, it also makes a difference how one applies conditional security to those who have been emotionally damaged and whose psyches are so fragile that they already feel insecure.It can do more harm than good. One can become very legalistic in a heartbeat as you well know. The road that leads to the narrow gate is lined by the ditch of legalism on one side and the ditch of licentiousness on the other side. Perseverance and staying out of those ditches in order to finish the race is imperative. One becomes saved at the moment he/she believes and trusts in the atoning blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. One demonstrates the sincerity of belief by one’s repentant lifestyle. Works done in obedience to God (not legalism) are an outward manifestation of inward saving faith and not the cause of it. That’s why James wrote that faith without works is dead and one is justified by works and not by faith alone. They are two sides of the same coin.
The fact that the Bible mentions eternal life as being eternal has nothing to do with the possession of it as the adjective “eternal” modifies the noun “life” – not the one who has it. Thus the life that is eternal can be conditional or unconditional depending on one’s theology. You point to King David as an example of one who sinned – yet we both know that God referred to him as a “man after my own heart.” Yes David committed sin but he REPENTED and did not PRACTICE sinning in his life. He was certainly not a serial murderer/serial adulterer. His subsequent behavior showed that he genuinely repented of his sins as there is no Biblical record that he ever murdered or had an adulterous affair again. Same thing with Peter as he initially denied Jesus but later in humility repented and followed faithfully thereafter. As you know, no one is without sin and the scriptures promise forgiveness and cleansing to those who confess their sins (1 Jn 1:8-10). However these verses are often lifted out of context as the assurance of forgiveness is conditional upon the requirement of v.7 – “But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.” This is a conditional statement indicated by the word “if.” The requirement is “walking in the light.” If a believer’s lifestyle can be generally characterized as walking in the light, then God will forgive those occasional sins upon confessing them. However if a Christian walks in darkness and is willfully disobedient and practicing sin, no such assurance of forgiveness exists. That is why John later writes in chapter 3: “EVERYONE who makes a PRACTICE of sinning also practices LAWLESSNESS; sin is lawlessness….Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a PRACTICE of sinning is OF THE DEVIL, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. John’s writings are consistent with Paul’s writings in Rom 8:13 as the Word does not contradict itself. “For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” Both of these passages warn of separation from God and spiritual death; not just loss of reward to those brethren who sow to the flesh and make a practice of sinning.
I’m not sure of your point in citing Rom 8:9 but all the verses prior to v.12, Paul is referring to Christians. That is why he utilizes the coordinating conjunction – therefore – to start off v.12.
Unfortunately the first comment I left was done with voice recognition software and I did not have the time to edit it correctly, please disregarded and read this response which has been edited. I will be sending a copy of this to your private email.
Part of the problem that we deal with is that so many individuals seem to believe that the Bible was given down in American English, and therefore misunderstand the Koine Greek grammar. Many people misunderstand Strong’s root dictionary in the back of its concordance, which is also now sold as an independent Greek dictionary.
Strong’s does not parse the grammar of every specific verse within diverse passages, as there is detailed difference many times in the same word used in different places. And using Strong’s is a mistake because it only presents a generic, not specific translation of the root word, not the word that you are specifically handling in any given text. To do this you must parse the Greek grammar individually according to each word in their individual usage.
I don’t want to be condescending in this but I need to make one other point.
Everyone has an opinion about everything in existence. We refer to this as a bias, rather negative or positive; which is normally built upon a frame of reference and a worldview.
When someone says they hold no opinion on a subject that is untrue, they just refuse to divulge what it is, nothing is neutral when it comes to opinions.
Since I like strawberry ice cream it mandates that I like less other flavors such as chocolate, I don’t like the color yellow and don’t wear it.
And as believers we still and always do interpret all things, including the Bible according to our own bias or frame of reference, depending on where we were raised, what church or denomination we attended, if we went to Bible college or did not, what Bible college we went to, how motivated we are to seek truth (meaning how hard we study God’s Word, our commitment; not just the time we send to prove our belief is appears correct, which is different that trying to find truth), as compared to what most people do, which is to prove that they are right, and how hard it is for us to allow the Holy Spirit to change our minds.
Some people say, well that’s just your opinion, as if all opinions are the same.
The point I’m getting to is that’s not an accurate thought, some opinions hold much more weight because the individual may be informed; but most importantly some opinions are based upon truth as compared to some opinions which are only based upon a subjective belief – not allowing the Holy Spirit the opportunity to change their mind. This willingness is rare especially among believers.
After 42 years of deeply studying God’s word, and over the past 20 years learning to attempt to disprove my own belief system, and allow the Holy Spirit at times to even pry something out of my hands, I have reversed myself on four or five major doctrines.
I was raised in a denomination, and helped pastor in a church over 36 years ago in a good sized church that believed that eternal security was blasphemy.
I held this view until a decade later, under intense agony regarding this doctrine.
During that time I also became a student of Greek grammar.
It was the Greek grammar that convinced me that eternal life, is eternal.
You see what you are fighting is what you refer to as “Eternal Security”, this term is not even in the Bible.
It is humanistic to believe that it is unfair that everyone gets into heaven while some act so carnally, and others behave in obedience; this appears unjust; yet the Greek is indisputable.
Even, if you really wanted to know the truth, you would’ve read the five articles, which are very lengthy but have dozens, if not hundreds of references, mainly dealing with the Greek grammar concerning this subject; but you have not, You chose the shortest article, which you never even addressed the Greek which is indisputable.
There are many people who refused to put skin in the game and spend the time to read an article and then confront what they assert is untrue, this is what you have done. It is lazy and lacks integrity. You come to a website, don’t even deal with the article and then leave a comment questioning other passages never dealing with the article which you left a comment concerning – do you not see the lack of integrity and that, the lack of commitment to God’s word, the disrespect you show me and those that read these articles, those looking for truth not attempting to establish what they believe.
It is obvious that you have not read the lengthy articles nor addressed the undisputed facts that are presented, it is because you cannot and you use other Scriptures which are not directly dealt with which you believe make your point – Can you not see the lack of integrity you display in such guerrilla tactics. I have been convicted by the Holy Spirit to refuse to engage in allow people to act like spiritually immature believers using such tactics.
I have spent hundreds of hours on these articles, addressing a subject which I did not believe many years ago, which I sacrificially allowed God to correct the, then I find myself dealing with people that don’t even take the time to check out what I say. You see my opinion has cost me very dearly, I have skin in the game, I have spent hundreds of hours presenting that which the Holy Spirit has shown me, and I will no longer allow the carnal flesh of humanist Christians to attempt to sidetrack others because of their own pride.
I am aware that these words seem very harsh. But let me ask you a question, and please pray and allow the Holy Spirit to help you in achieving the answer.
“If someone is doing something that damages other people and helps undermine their faith, with Jesus as our example, hatted he treat such people. In his case they were referred to as Pharisees, the religious leaders of the day. Jesus was harsh, he used to throw icewater in their face, saying all kinds of unkind things. Now I don’t believe that you are an unbeliever, and that is not the essence of my point. But we need to stop playing nice when it comes to issues that undermine other people’s faith in Jesus Christ and his ability to keep them even when they asked sinful, even with a repetitive sin, which basically all sins are.
You see you think you don’t habitually lie, yet you’ve already shown a lack of integrity in dealing with me, is that not dishonesty which is the same as a lie. And how many times do you when I lie each day, things we call little white lies.
You see and trying to judge others as being unsaved you place yourself in a position that you condemned them, not discerning them, but passing judgment which is only allowed to God.
You refuse to see the harm that you’re doing in people’s lives, as compared to the good you could be doing by bringing them back in obedience to serving the Lord.
You think by telling them they’re not saved that you’re bringing into a new place of commitment, yet how many more times with a questionnaire faith and have to recommit again and again, and find themselves never growing in the spirit because it always starting over again because of other people’s opinions.
Paul says to lay aside those sins that repetitively hinder us, and go on in their faith.
Understanding that sin does not make them unsaved, that they are saved by grace through faith, wherein that is even a gift of God. So what you are doing, because of a humanistic (and please look up the word) religious mindset is harming others causing doubt wherein they never grow in faith, teaching them towards the outside of the cup, wherein they don’t have to deal with the inside, doing the same kind of sins and declaring themselves righteous as you have done. Humble yourself under the hand of God and allow the Holy Spirit to show you truth based upon the original language God chose, read my articles and look for the truth.
Jesus came to teach us how to be saved wherein we received eternal life, it is life that is eternal meaning you cannot lose it, yet you teach the opposite, that behaviors earn us salvation.
You see sanctification is by the Holy Spirit not by you.
I’m dealing with people that I’m trying to get to follow God’s word in faith, trust in God and not themselves.
If you read the articles of my website you would see that I always go on from there teaching them not to sin because sin hampers our spiritual growth and makes us less available to do God’s will in their own ministry serving him.
I have never justified sin, but I have pointed out that you’re not saved by a lack of sin, your saved by grace, God’s unmerited favor, it is undeserved and never based upon your behavior, it is his gift, you do not earn it, nor are you responsible to keep it, you cannot hold on to what you never gained in the first place, that is humanism.
You see I refuse to allow someone who has refused to allow the Holy Spirit to convince them if they are right or wrong, to make up terminology Such as eternal security in an effort to defend their own point of view.
That’s why I refuse to be called a Calvinist, because I don’t hold to the five principles, or Armenians five principles as well.
It is wrong for us to follow a doctrine of man and use that as our basis of belief.
I’m not a Calvinist, I’m a born again conservative Christian that has paid a high price for my own pride and arrogance, who for years miss-taught people because it sounded right, The same as you have.
If you really want to know the truth on this subject, not simply validate your own belief or what you were taught. I would challenge you to display the courage to read the five major articles concerning eternal life, Especially the one entitled: “Eternal Security – It’s about God” (and yes I do use the expression eternal security so that Google and other search engines will bring people to the website concerning this miss entitled subject
Now I use the term eternal security because individuals that do not believe in eternal life use this term, and as I have said it is tag words used within Google and other search engines that would bring them to my website and these articles.
But the real issue is not eternal security.
We would both agree that those that are truly saved our secure concerning their eternity.
Yet the real question is do you believe when Christ said that he brought eternal life to his followers, with the exception of the one that was to fulfill the prophecies of the apostate Judas?
(Side note concerning Judas: By the way, can you show me any passage which states that Judas was one saved, and in the book of Psalms where it talks about his name being blotted out, actually means his name was never in the book of life, that Hebrew can mean this, the same as it can mean taken out; either translation works, so the point becomes mute, And in acts 3:19 the verb tense for blotted is in the aorist, indicating his name never was in the book declaring it in the affirmative past tense, not present tense is it would be needed for his name to a been in the book in the first place, and the voice is passive, meaning that the subject did not do the action, but receive the action, meaning that he did not make himself blotted out of the book, he never was in the book in the first place because God never changes his mind and it is God who writes the names in the book, never taking a name out of the book, and the mood was in the infinitive, meaning it was done “to”, with the best example being: “this was done to fulfill what the prophet said” – please see footnote concerning this reference)
Because at the point that the Gospels record Jesus’ statements concerning eternal life, which was prior to the crucifixion and The disciples abandoning him, and before were Peter would deny and cursed him. Yet according to you as long as they or peter repented from that first act and did not habitually sin, they would be saved.
How do not read in Galatians 3, how Peter continued to sin and allowed James to take the ministry that was given to him. And how that James allowed Jewish traditions concerning Gentile believers, these were acts of sin.
And beyond that every day of man’s life, he will sin doing the same repetitious sins.
1st John 1:9 makes it clear because of the tense that John uses when declaring that we are sinners that will sin and never stop sinning while we are on this earth in these bodies.
For you to say that if a person does a big sin and then doesn’t habitually do it, always keeps repenting lays waste to the thought that we are sinners every day of our life, doing the same sins. Oh yes we repent of them, and then are doomed again Until we repent – We are not saved by confession we are saved by the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross, which is why David pray for forgiveness of those sins he wasn’t even aware of, which we all do daily.
So how is it any different from the carnal believer that goes on the backside of the desert for a year and lives like the prodigal son, if he comes back and repents, is he not saved the same as you, otherwise why did Christ waste his time with the story of the prodigal son, who changed his lifestyle, his close, and where he lived; yet was always the son, the prodigal of his father – who he was never changed, only where he was and what he was doing.
Don’t you understand how arrogant it is for us to think that we hold ourselves to Christ, that we are any better than any other believer that sins such big sins on the outside, yet holds such demonstrative sins on the inside, such as pride and arrogance.
I am a very proud man, wherein every day I must fight it, and I fight it by taking ownership that I’m wrong too often, but it was learning from my mistakes that brings me to the place that I can speak of the grace of God in people’s lives that will commit themselves to him, who fall short far too often, but do come back.
I think we can both agree if they didn’t come back they were saved in the first place, but it is blasphemous to say that God cannot keep that which is his.
What will separate us from God’s love nothing. According to Romans 8.
One of the terms In this verse concerns “any other creature” includes the person themselves, so the statement that a person can still be loved by God, but yet choose to walk away is antithetical to this whole section of Scripture which declares that nothing shall separate us from his love.
According to the Bible we cannot sidestep the understanding that this expression of “being in his love” is analogous with being saved.
He does not love the unsaved. He died so that all could come to him while they were unsaved yet he knew who would respond, which is why it says in Ephesians that you when I, if we are really one of his; and were “chosen before the foundations of the earth.”
If you read my writings you know that the Greek does not allow for this Passage to be a group of people, or generic for anyone called the Christian.
If you’ve read what I’ve written you’ll know that it speaks about the individual –only.
Now you asked me why I referred to Romans 8:9, which reads:
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
It is because Paul when speaking to these Christians states that he knows that they are not doing the things that he states could be done by the unbeliever.
When he states “but ye are in the flesh“ is in the indicative mood – it is a fact, not a question, or choice.
Using the Textus Receptus Greek New Testament you do not have a choice in interpreting this.
He was talking about them doing the same things that sinners did wherein they would go to hell, but the believer would not, so why would you do those same things.
You see if you understood the Greek, you would understand what is referred to as a “Conditional Clause,” which is a Greek word many times translated into the English word “if”, yet does not mean the same thing as the English word if, having four different conditions that are contingent upon the Greek grammar of each particular passage.
Below are the four different types of “Conditional Clauses) (See Endnote) in the Greek language.
The one used here is in the first example, which is hypothetical – “only” Hypothetical in nature, hence I listed a few verses which display this characteristic.
You see Paul was saying when he used this hypothetical if, that it could not be true of those that were believers.
The if used in verse 13 is the kind of conditional clause that indicates if something is not done, that there is evidence to the contrary, yet in verse nine it is not the case.
And in verse 13 those that walk according to the flesh are unbelievers, and those that walk according to the spirit Are believers.
You know how this is known.
It is because you do not walk in the spirit by your own power, if you’re trying to say that this statement is proving that a Christian, as a condition Of their salvation must follow in order to be saved, then your changing what being saved by grace says by putting on this condition which is not taking place in the grammar of the original Greek.
It sounds funny to us in the English, and it would make sense to see it this way, but God did not choose to use sloppy English to transmit his word to mankind.
He chose the most specific and exact language within Greek because what he had to say was so important you had to understand the details, the specific details.
So I would suggest that you start studying the Greek because your argument is not with me concerning what the Greek says, it is with God concerning the language he chose to use and what it means.
One last thing.
You made the statement of how dangerous teaching eternal life to those that live in sin is.
I agree if a person never lives a sinful life which denies Jesus and doesn’t display the sanctification which is brought by the Holy Spirit, not by the believer, then I would agree the person was never saved in the first place.
They were the kind of seed that fell into the soil and though temporarily basked in the word of God, yet after a season, either the cares of this world, or the troubles of this world were too much for them and they could not take root, To become the plant they could become.
Do not confuse the seed of the word, with the plant that it could produce
It is our false conception that a person that merely says the words “Jesus I except you becomes a believer.”
You misunderstand the difference between the words “believe” and “faith” in the Bible Concerning these two words.
So please read some of my articles that distinguish the difference between believing, which is only a cognitive state, and faith; wherein the cognitive state is started, but yet progresses when it is added with the conviction of God’s word (“So then, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God” – Romans 10:17) which produces an action which the Bible refers to when it concerns faith.
And yes there are times in the New Testament where the English uses the word believe, but in the Greek it is the same word that is used for faith.
If you read my writings, you’ll understand why this occurred.
But getting back to my final point, you would not believe how many people I have deal with that have problems in their life because of their choice of sin, or because of being in a warped family or environment, and listen to others it say that Concerning salvation, life is not eternal, that they cannot be secure that Jesus will keep them – this is destroying people’s faith, yet if they are really his he they will come back.
Yet people like you keep them on the backside of the desert far longer than they needed to be, Within missing out the fruit they could be achieving; wherein time the Holy Spirit brings about the sanctification, and they quit sinning which causes them and people around them such a heavy price.
And you think that the murder committed by David was a last major repetitive sin that he committed, you misunderstand the book of Psalms, concerning his family, and especially as seen in Lives of his son Absalom and Solomon, and the rest of his children; not to mention the terrible since he committed against God and the people.
He maid major seal mistakes most of his life, that we call sin.
Please investigate the other side of your belief, the Holy Spirit will reward you if you are honest in your pursuit. Brent
1. If and it’s so; “since,” or “indeed” (Hypothetical “I would love it if I could fly” – Hypothetical “if I could be any animal, I would want to be an eagle”, as in: John 3:12; 5:31; 8:16; 8:36; Rom. 6:5; 6:8; 8:11; 8:31; 11:21; 2 Tim. 2:11, as well as 1 Corth. 15:2; 1-3, for a few)
2. If and it’s not so;
3. If; maybe it’s so and maybe it’s not so;
4. If I wish it was so but probably not;
Apodosis In linguistics, an apodosis is the main clause in a conditional sentence. For example in a sentence of the form, “If X, then Y”, the apodosis is Y (expressing the conclusion). …
Protasis In linguistics, a protasis is the subordinate clause (the if-clause) in a conditional sentence. For example in a sentence of the form, “if X, then Y”, the protasis is …
The following is taken from a Greek grammar website (http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm) which states:
Greek Conditional Sentences
Conditional sentences are “If …, then …” statements. They make a statement that if something happens, then something else will happen.
The ‘if’ clause is referred to as the ‘protasis’ by grammarians. It comes from the Greek words ‘pro’ (meaning before) and ‘stasis’ (meaning ‘stand’). So the ‘protasis’ means ‘what stands before’ or ‘comes first’ as far as these two clauses are concerned. The ‘then’ clause is termed the ‘apodosis’; it is what ‘comes after’ the protasis.
Logical Relationship between Protasis and Apodasis
There are a number of different relationships that can exist between the protasis and apodosis. It is important that you try to distinguish between these relationships for sake of more clearly understanding the text. Please also note that there can be some overlap between these three relationships.
They could represent a Cause-Effect relationship, where the action in the protasis will cause the effect in the apodosis. For example Romans 8:13b, “…but if by the spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.”
They could show a Evidence-Inference type relationship, where the apodosis is inferred to be true based upon the evidence presented in the protasis. This will often be semantically the converse of the ‘Cause-Effect’ relationship. For example 1 Cor. 15:44, “If there is a soulish body, there is also a spiritual one.”
Or, the relationship could be one showing Equivalence between the protasis and apodosis, which is actually a subset of the Evidence-Inference relationship. For example Gal_2:18, “…if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.”
Classification of Greek Conditional Sentences
Greek has more ability than English in describing the kind of relationship between the protasis, and the apodosis. It is possible for the writer/speaker to indicate whether the protasis is true or not. Actually they can indicate if they are presenting the protasis as ‘assumed true (or false) for the sake of argument’. In order to indicate this kind of relationship between the protasis and apodosis, Classical Greek traditional had four kinds of conditional sentences, based upon what tense and mood the verb occurs in and upon some helping words. These are much the same in Koine (Biblical) Greek, with slight variations.
(Please see link to the PDF chart below for a detailed description of formation and examples of conditional sentence.)
First Class Condition – Is considered the ‘Simple Condition’ and assumes that the premise (protasis) is true for the sake of argument. The protasis is formed with the helping word ei (‘if’) with the main verb in the indicative mood, in any tense; with any mood and tense in the apodosis.
Second Class Condition – Is known as the ‘Contrary-to-Fact Condition’ and assumes the premise as false for the sake of argument. The protasis is again formed with the helping word ei (‘if’) and the main verb in the indicative mood. The tense of the verb (in the protasis) must also be in a past-time tense (aorist or imperfect). The apodosis will usually have the particle an as a marking word, showing some contingency.
Third Class Condition – Traditionally known as the ‘More Probable Future Condition’, the third class condition should actually be split into two different categories, the ‘Future More Probable Condition’ (indicating either a probable future action or a hypothetical situation) and the ‘Present General Condition’ (indicating a generic situation or universal truth at the present time). It is formed in the protasis using the word ean (ei plus an = ‘if’) and a verb in the subjunctive mood. The main verb of the protasis can be in any tense, but if the condition is a ‘Present General’, the verb must be in the present tense.
Fourth Class Condition – Is usually called the ‘Less Probable Future Condition’ and does not have a complete example in the New Testament. The fulfillment of this condition was considered even more remote than the Third Class Condition. It was formed with the helping word ei and the optative mood in the protasis. The apodosis had the helping word an and its verb was also in the optative mood.
“The only certain barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it.”
“All of us are subject to the limitations imposed by the presumptions we bring to a topic,
and it may be essential to step back from time to time and reestablish a fresh perspective.
Because the only certain barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it.”
Come into the SON light.
(I decided to shorten this up and edit it so that you have no excuses for your evil distortion of the Greek grammar of God’s word. RE: And regarding First class conditional clauses – Have you not read what Daniel Wallace says about simple conditional clauses and the assumptions made by many concerning the first class – NO you may have attended that first year of Greek, but it is in the fourth year of humbly seeking to understand Greek that you start to understand and learn how to use it the way God wanted to do understood. You cannot even maintain contextual consistency and integrity, Yet you sound so sophisticated, yet lack the integrity to NOT note that here are exceptions that Wallace talks about. Never take a knife to a gun fight )
You provide just enough poise and the sound good, yet you mandate something that is never mandated but is used as a guideline with exceptions that even though the mood seems to vindicate your resumption, yet you lack the wisdom of those who know of the exceptions.
And you also had not discern the ability to distinguish between those teachers would promote their own agenda and attempt only to validate that as opposed to those of the truth.
The only sure very are to acquiring, is the presumption one already has it.
So, Romans 8:38-39, and the fact that it does not use the word sin, specifically.
When everything that came before this dealt with sin and that the believer has no condemnation, then you flip the meaning because the obvious escape you.
What a humanistic philosophical argument you attempt to make.
You say that because the word “sin” is not stated, that sin can separate us from God, when this whole passage is talking about believers who have no condemnation
And you attempt to say that these verses which are used to bring eternal security to the mind of the believer because of the power of God; and the blood of his son – and you’re trying to flip it around.
Quit trying to act like you’re a teacher when you can even maintain the context of the passage.
What is ridiculous is what Jesus came to do is to separate us from our sins by paying for them.
So, please consider the obvious, yet more importantly what the Greek actually says.
Rom 8:37 KJV: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 KJV: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 KJV: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
One, we understand that Paul is speaking to believers, which would include himself as he uses the third person pronoun “we” in verse 37.
Next, The word “all” means exactly what it says without any exception. All is all these all been everything. This includes sin, it is a thing and is grouped with this.
Do you think that there’s an exclusion to the power of God concerning sin when it is for sin sake that Christ came and died.
Are you this desperate that you cannot read what this text says very plainly in the Greek. Are you supposing that we are separated by our sin, which Christ already died for – This passage is after Romans 8:1. Because it is the blood of Jesus which saved us from our sins.
This is a ridiculous argument that displays how far you will go to insert the fear in the place of faith in the believer’s life which would make them have no power because they keep concentrating on what they must do to be saved.
I am done being nice to you individuals bring condemnation which was addressed in the first part of this passage.
When it says there is no condemnation, why do you keep trying to condemn people that you say are believers by saying they can lose that ability based upon their own behavior.
It is the behavior of Jesus Christ on the cross that saves is from our sins.
I have come to the conclusion that you are a heretic and those that support this doctrine of keeping your salvation, which mandates that you continue to earn it through your life, is the doctrine of devils.
You see if you’re right and a person can lose their salvation, then you are bringing doubt to them, which indeed would cause them to lose their salvation. You are not warning them, you are condemning them!
You are providing a self-fulfilling evil prophecy.
And to imply that I or Anyone that is presenting everlasting life, rather you call it the “Eternal Security,” OR AS JESUS CALLED IT “everlasting life,” AND THAT WE ARE IMPLYING SOME KIND OF CHEAP GRACE is an abomination to the blood of Jesus.
I’ve come to the conclusion that we are speaking about two different Jesus’s.
That you can’t be “adopted” into the family of God which according to Ephesians can never be undone.
And as Ephesians said you must not be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.
Wherein the word used for “sealed” is the same word used of the Kings’ ring that when a law was made using the ring, that even the king himself could not unseal it, so what are you doing, and who are you really serving if not Jesus and His Father.
Because if you’re not sealed, you’re not one of his. And if you’re one of his you must be seal. You cannot be unsealed, I don’t know how many times I have to keep saying this and you never respond to it you just keep up with one on scripture here are there and try to support this doctrine of devils.
You’re actually saying the blood of Jesus Christ is not strong enough to KEEP some one.
You are a heretic.
And as Jesus said to those religious individuals who at judgment they were surprised that they were not accepted by Christ, and pointed out the miracles that they did.
Do you remember what Jesus said to them, after calling them “workers of iniquity.”
He said “I never knew you.” He did not say I knew you and you used to be good, but then you turn away. Jesus was emphatic said that he had never had a relationship with these churchgoers that claimed to be Christians. Of which you are a prime example.
You are of the Pharisees that causes little ones to stumble.
And if what I’m saying is true at About being permanently saying (wherein you can never be temporarily saved but must be and are permanently saved forever), they did not go to hell for the stumbling, but they do not spend time growing in Spiritual maturity, bringing Glory to God because they were preoccupied with doing the things you say they’ve Gotta do to hold on to a salvation they never earned.
You were causing the levers to waste time which is exactly what the devil has you believing that you’re not doing.
Do you think that you could accuse people of not being saved and that this does not damage their faith if they are truly safe.
When you think it’s OK to do a little damage because you’re really concerned about their eternal soul.
No which are doing is promoting the kingdom of your father Satan, by slowing up the progress that people could be making as born-again children of God, concrete in their faith concerning their fathers ability and desire to hold onto them permanently.
You will never go out and achieve the things that you can do our fuel are stifled by repeatedly tried a whole lot of your security rather than going on in pushing to the mark of the high calling of Jesus Christ.
No you’re not sending people to hell, or else you’re doctored with the true.
But you are slowly but surely keeping people concentrating on themselves at risk of not growing in faith.
“..Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” But the two words that start the sentence are “so then.” This represents a conclusion of everything that was said before which dealt with the believer understanding the permanence they have in the blood of Jesus Christ. So that they go on in exercise that the so-called faith doing the will of God the Father
I know who you are. Rather you call yourself Stewart, or Evan, or 4berryman, you are a coward that hides out and refuses to hold these conversations on your own web site, knowing that you oppose the will of God, and will be defeated by God’s word which you will day after day arguing with stupid and ridiculous comments such as the concept that Romans 8:28 covers everything BUT Sin, when it speaks about the love that God has for us, again as Paul says “we” concerning the salvation which he gives only to those he loves.
Are you suggesting there’s two different grades of Christian.
At this Point I’m going to say it, you are a fool, you distort the word of God and bring condemnation which is what this chapters is dealing with.
And you’re a coward on top of that.
I’m saying this to attempt to get you to come into the light of day and hold a conversation that both you and I will publish on our web sites.
Stop living in fear in creating fear and others and let’s talk if you say that you are a true believer in Jesus Christ.
You believe you can lose your salvation which means that you have to do so could keep that.
I know that the word of God says that he provided the salvation for me.
And to imply that because we teach that salvation is permanent, that it is indeed the internal eyes Jesus said it was; is somehow legitimizing sin is such a straw-man, and so deceiving.
Sin is so bad that the only sure that’s a command was some blood of God’s Son.
It sounds like you’re jealous because there’s too many immature Christians that waffle back and forth (in the beginning of their walk, before they grow into spiritual maturity) in open sin, you wish you could do that too – you should be praying that these brothers to come to understand the hindrance of sin in their life, rather than condemning them to hell by saying they can lose that which they never gain themselves.
That which the son of God gained for us.
You keep me and concentrating on their own works rather than lifting their head and following the leadership of the holy spirit in doing the work of the ministry as the mature their Christian walk.
You’re sort sightedness sees people now when they are sinning, and condemns them right now with the story has it been finished yet.
You can’t wait to bring condemnation.
How do you know that the people that you are observing that live in sin will stay there, any more than the product will son would stave in the pig trough.
You are assuming upon God’s will, over this better to be cautious you say your self.
No which you are doing is defeating levers understanding of the power of God lives.
And they are to walk on in keep growing until those sins start to fall away.
You look at Moses and 75 and condemn him as an unbeliever, which is not validated till he’s 125.
You are not only if this is when teach. I pray that the holy spirit of God can damage you own rings you to the end of your self – because you put so much confidence in yourself that you even the issues additional clauses, because you are taught by the same evil people or you regurgitate someone’s heretical teaching from the Internet.
Unless you are willing to come out and the light, invite me to your website is I have openly inviting you to mine, I will have nothing more to do with you and your cowardice.
Or maybe I will start to expand to Google who you are, and how little you really know. Come into the SON light. bb
Come into the SON light.
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